Myth #1. Barna and Viola believe that if a practice was invented by a pagan, it’s bad and shouldn’t be observed.
Myth #2. Barna and Viola believe that the first-century churches were perfect and we should imitate everything they did just as they did them.
Myth #3. Barna and Viola promote “house church” as the only correct model for church.
Myth #4. Barna and Viola believe that God doesn’t use the institutional church and never has.
Myth #5. Barna and Viola are against pastors and believe that God doesn’t use pastors.
Myth #6. Barna and Viola believe that 2,000 years of church history has been wrong on every count.
Myth #7. Barna and Viola are against “church” and believe that folks shouldn’t be part of a believing community.
Myth #8. Barna and Viola don’t believe in preaching.
Myth #9. Barna and Viola believe that a church must meet in a house to be legitimate.
Myth #10. Barna and Viola don’t believe in any kind of church leadership.
Anyone who has carefully read Pagan Christianity and Reimagining Church from cover-to-cover knows that all of the above statements are false. We state so much in the books themselves and in other places such as the FAQ page. (Just one example: see page xxix in the free sample chapters of the book.)
Nevertheless, it’s been observed that if an argument cannot be refuted on its own ground, applying a blow-torch to straw man city is the only option for dismissing it, despite the fact that this technique is deceptive and intellectually dishonest.
We hope this list helps to separate fact from fiction. For more details, see the FAQ page above and the related articles below.
Also, if you or anyone you know has only read Pagan Christianity, they’ve only heard the first half of the argument. Reimagining Church gives the second half and discusses the issue of contextualization and culture in detail. Both books go together.
Finally, if you know anyone who has critiqued these books using any of the 10 arguments listed above, by all means, invite them onto this blog to a civil debate with me directly. I’d be more than happy to dialogue with them. The attitude of “don’t confuse me with the facts” isn’t a Christian one as it only perpetuates false information. As always, I could be wrong in what I’ve written, but won’t really know unless we dialogue.
Related:
House Church vs. Organic Church
Neil Cole & I Discuss Missional Organic Church
A Word to All Authors – Aspiring or Actual
Why Organic Church is Not Exactly a Movement
What is an Organic Church? A Plea for Clarity
Reflections on the Postchurch Perspective
What Does Authentic Organic Church Life Look Like?: I
What Does Authentic Organic Church Life Look Like?: II
Check out the new Must-Have-In-Your-Library Book List. Also, subscribe to the free CHRIST IS ALL podcast. The podcast is for both iTunes and non-iTunes users. It contains Christ-centered conference messages, interviews, book chapters, etc.
** You are welcome to provide a link to this post on your blog, Twitter, Facebook, etc. But you are not permitted to copy and paste it.
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Victoria Mosher
02/01/2010
Hilarious!
Brenda Corey
02/01/2010
I believe some people are afraid to think outside the box. :) Also, that out of personal fears and religous activities, things like the 10 aforementioned myths are birthed. I remember one preacher use to say: Ignorance gone to seed. Whether ignorance is not knowing any better, or just ignoring, still one acts like a farmer planting all these seeds to raise a crop of myths! I wish we could just follow the pattern JESUS and obey Him and respect one another.
Brenda Corey
02/01/2010
I love every expression of Christ in every venue He is operating! There is so much of HIM to enjoy!
Bill
02/01/2010
Great post Frank. I heard just about all of these myths until I read your books for myself. You certainly believe in leadership, just not the way it’s traditionally done. I love your book “Finding Organic Church” that talks about leadership in a new way. Solid. As for preaching, I kept hearing that you and Barna don’t believe in preaching. When I read the books, you make a clear difference between preaching/teaching and the contemporary sermon. I just heard your message VantagePoint and it’s outstanding. Great preaching! I’m sure you knwo that people who have their minds made up will continue to spread the myths, but it’s good for the open minded.
frankaviola
02/01/2010
Brenda, tru dat. Sometimes myths get birthed simply because someone will read partially or sloppily, draw some conclusions, spread ’em, and not complete the series. So it’s not always a dark motive behind it. “Pagan Christianity” for instance isn’t a stand alone. “Reimagining Church” is the other volume. They go together. If someone just reads the one, it’s easier for them to miscalculate where the arguments are all headed.
Bill, you couldn’t be more correct. We believe in shepherds (pastors) also, for instance, but feel that the NT ministry of “shepherd” that Scripture envisions is quite different from today’s popular form. What’s fascinating to us is that we state most of these myths in the books themselves as “are-you-saying?” *objections* and counter them as clearly as we can. Yet people will believe what they want to believe.
Jared
02/01/2010
You mean you don’t believe in those things? Well, I’m lost now…I thought we were on the same page ;)
Philip
02/01/2010
Frank, thank you for being a risk taker and willing to speak boldly. I was one of those critics for a season. I had an early released copy of Pagan Christianity and before I had ever read a single page was already reading reviews and formulating my attack strategy. It’s hard to step outside of yourself long enough to realize you’ve become what you fought so hard to not become. I think for most pastors, fear is the basis of their attacks. Frankly, fear of loosing their paychecks. It’s hard, they have families, bills, and a “community” of people. When someone writes something as bold as Frank has written you can become defensive. Defensive of loosing your little “Kingdom”. change formats, packaging, times, days, music, etc., and it is very difficult, mention changing the system and it is deadly. Changing a paradigm is a painful process. Just be careful on which side of the stones you’re sitting.
frankaviola
02/01/2010
Jared: thanks for the laugh, bro. ;-)
Philip: I admire your courage and your honesty. I’ve received a number of emails like your comment; but it’s rare for a Christian who has been defensive and gone on the attack to apologize or to say they were wrong. You’ve got my admiration. May your tribe increase, brother.
cindyinsd
02/01/2010
What happens is that people either get their info second-hand or they skim an article/book they don’t want to read. They come away with assumptions rather than anything resembling facts.
I once wrote for a small-town newspaper, but not everyone recognized me. People sometimes would “quote” my own articles to me as proof that I was wrong about something. This amused me on a couple of levels.
First, I knew what I had written (I’d check, just to be sure), and they obviously hadn’t read it.
Second, I wrote it. I’m no more reliable than anyone else. I did my best to be accurate and unbiased, but the fact that this or that was purported to have appeared in print made it unassailable truth to some people. Very funny.
I know you’re not surprised, Frank–but it is frustrating. Never-the-less, those the Father leads will learn what He wants them to know.
Love, Cindy
Javi
02/01/2010
Like most argentinians I was brought up as a catholic. My great grand mother used to pay for “indulgences” (i.e. she paid for God’s forgiveness) It was that very same thing what triggered the Reformation. Today protestants are compelled to pay Tithes, wich basically is paying for God’s blessing (in their twisted exegesis of Malaquia 3 8-11). Ministers tell You to have faith (and give), but, at the same time they are afraid to go without the assurance of getting their salaries. What’s the difference…???
This is just a small example that something is depply wrong with Christendom. Barna’s and Your’s is a monumental contribution to the restoration of the Church. And a vital understanding so desperatly needed by christians. Keep on marching, brother
David Knapp
02/02/2010
Question: You are against the pew right? I mean those seats are just so uncomfortable. ;)
frankaviola
02/02/2010
David, lol. I prefer padded ;-)
Actually, I’m not “against” pews, pulpits, or any of such things. They are all neutral in themselves. BUT … to have a church meeting the way it’s envisioned in the NT (not an apostolic meeting), rows of pews all faced the same way grossly inhibits body functioning. Recent example: Two weeks ago one of the churches I’m presently planting had a meeting. They met in a coffee shop (not a home). There were about 30 believers who gathered. For almost 2 hours straight, the believers shared one by one the Lord Jesus Christ. There were no pauses. In fact, the meeting was so full of life that they were interrupting one another (not in a chaotic way, but in a decent way) – see 1 Cor. 14:30 for this dynamic. The meeting was very rich. And this is an infant church. The Lord was glorified and the saints edified. No one facilitated that meeting. I wasn’t even present. It was led by the Spirit, and the saints had prepared that week by seeking the Lord together.
Rows of pews in that sort of meeting just don’t work.
Interestingly enough, many Christians live their entire lives without ever witnessing a meeting where every member shares the Lord Jesus without a human head present directing or facilitating, or as is most often seen, dominating the ministry. It’s a sight to see. But this is one of the things that “equipping the saints” is designed to produce.
Marc Goodman
02/02/2010
The idea that has captured me more than any other is that for twenty-five years I believed that Jesus was directing the affairs of the church and now I can see plainly that this is just a slogan for most if not all churches. Now my eyes are opened and I can actually see that one day I’ll meet with brothers and sisters where Jesus is actually leading. This is more exciting than anything I’ve experienced in all my years as a Christian. The Bible has new meaning to me as Jesus is impacting my life is increditbly positive ways.
Craig Hardinger
02/02/2010
I could not agree with you more concerning the whole pew thing Frank. The arrangement definitely inhibits the gifts and lends to a cleric centered focus. But the meeting you described at the coffee shop is one that happens in thousands of churches all over the world and is not exclusive to an “organic church.” And, obviously, there is nothing sacred about a coffee shop any more than pews are sacred in a church. But here’s the thing – and you do a great job addressing this in one of your books, don’t know which one – first meetings are almost always that way. Momentum is up, enthusiasm is up, participation is up, everything is up. The rub comes with the fifth and then the tenth get together. Unless there is some type of, gasp, organization, leadership will arise that may or may not be godly. Alpha personalities can often times quench the Spirit without anyone even knowing it. So, to curb the problem of poor leadership, the people refer to Paul’s instructions to Timothy concerning appointment of deacons and elders, they then pray and decide together who should lead. Two weeks later a family joins the fellowship with unruly children that disrupt the meeting. Sister so-and-so insists on reading some really bad not so Christ-centered poetry. Brother so-and-so decides he wants to speak for 20 minutes and everyone agrees he doesn’t have the gift of teaching. So roles are assumed or appointed to deal with these kinds of problems and bingo bango bongo you got yourself and institution minus the pews hopefully. Bottom line, whether you blame Constantine for all the present woes or not, there are good reasons why Christians have enjoyed getting together in large groups even if they are facing the same way. I do not disagree with your assessment of modern day problems with the church. I do disagree with your attack on (and it is an attack) what you call the institutional church. And know, believe it or not, I’m not concerned about my salary or job security.
Susan Lavoie
02/02/2010
Just a thought from a former “pew sitting elder” … perhaps these myths originate from:
(a) People who have exited the “institution” hurt, disappointed or bitter and haven’t taken time to go through what I call “spiritual detox”, so what they read is filtered through their experience and taken out of context or to the extreme.
(b) Leaders who are dependent (financially/relationally/emotionally) on the current system fear questioning what they’ve been taught to believe. It is easier to challenge your books instead of challenging the status quo and risk losing control over people and finances.
For the most part the current system is EGO (Edging God Out) driven and not Holy Spirit lead (as you describe the recent gathering of believers). Those who want to see it change either don’t know how or figure it would cost them too much … so they keep doing business as usual.
Your books have confirmed so much of what had been churning within my heart for many years. I am grateful for the countless hours you spent in research and writing. Thank you!
Dave Lloyd
02/02/2010
Thanks, Frank, for your love for the body of Christ. As a ‘pastor’ of a church that meets on Sunday mornings in a public location, I can say that its the truth in your message (and brothers like you) that keep guys like me honest. No longer can we do it because thats the way its done. Rather, we have the freedom to make choices and to be deliberate in what we do. Thanks, brother.
Dave Lloyd
Emil Kirstein
02/03/2010
Hi Frank,
I’ve been “in the ministry” for many years and “out the ministry” for many years. I had come to realize that the pieces of the puzzle didn’t fit and were “made to fit” by the “powers that be.” And I had had enough. However, I didn’t have the answers to my questions. A dear friend said that God would supply the answers. And I believe that He is doing it.
As I started to read “Pagan Christianity,” I started to thank God for answering my questions. I’m halfway through “Reimagining Church,” and “Finding Organic Church” is waiting.
Firstly, I want to thank you for your courage and obedience to write these books. Secondly, even though I admire and appreciate you, I’m still a follower of Jesus and not one of Frank (no offense intended). Thirdly, I don’t know if “organic” is the correct word to use, but I fully agree with the logic behind it. Thus for lack of a better term it has to suffice. My fear is just that the multitude may jump on the “organic bandwagon” and we’re stuck with another movement or craze.
Finally, as an illustration, the following: when my friend’s wife’s cat scratched him, he kicked his neighbor’s barking dog. What’s the point? When something inside the house upsets one, it’s far easier to attack something on the other side of the fence. I believe that most of the creators of the myths you address in this blog have either not read your book properly or are looking for a convenient dog to kick to vent their own frustrations or hide their fears.
God has not appointed me to be you advocate, but let the truth be told. As from page one you have made your position clear regarding all these myths and accusations. Therefore, let the accusers be confronted by the words of your books. And the verdict will be “not guilty.”
May God bless you as you continue to bless many.
frankaviola
02/03/2010
Craig: There’s a huge gap between theory and reality. And then there’s the problem with filters. People filter whatever they read through their experience.
Two quick points:
First an observation: Every institutional leader who has said “there are thousands of meetings like the one you described going on all over the world and not in organic churches” (implying these are going on in institutionalized churches). In every case where a pastor/leader/paid staff of an IC said this and I asked them to point me to just one where me or my friends can observe it firsthand, it’s turned out that what they were talking about and what I’m describing are two VERY, VERY, VERY different things. This is the problem of filters.
Second: In my books, I explain how these problems are handled in organic expressions of the church. Not from theory, but from 21 years of experience. It’s what I call “the clerical objection.” It goes like this: “We MUST have official leaders or else such and such.”
There are elders/shepherds that handle certain problems in organic church life (see Reimagining Church), but they look and function very differently from the institutional form. There are extra local church planters that do also (see Finding Organic Church). And then there are the brothers and sisters who handle things together. (Look carefully at the book of 1 Corinthians, the problems, and what Paul did and didn’t do to resolve them. And *who* he exhorted to handle them.)
Organic church life and the institutional system are two very different worlds. And it’s hard to communicate the difference to those who haven’t lived in both worlds. Sometimes it’s like trying to explain what chocolate tastes like to a person who has only consumed vanilla.
Yes, George and I do challenge conventional thinking in our books on the basis of Scripture, church history, and experience. If someone wants to use the word “attack” to describe that challenge, that’s their choice. But the entire message is constructive and up-building. “Pagan Christianity” is just the first book. It’s purposely deconstructive. Reimagining Church, From Eternity to Here, and Finding Organic Church (the “ReChurch” series) are the constructive parts of the argument — the most important in fact. And the motivation of all of it is to peel back everything to bring the supremacy and headship of Jesus Christ back into view and into real expression.
Thanks for the kind words about my books ;-)
Marc Goodman
02/03/2010
Christians that out of hand reject what Frank and others have unveiled reminds me of the Pharisees who rejected Jesus because they knew he was undermining their authority. But this is just the issue. Who gave them this “authority”in the first place”? If we are ever to really see Jesus we must stop placing ourselves on His throne and allow Him to take His rightful place. Only Jesus has the authority and He never gave it to anyone
Daniel M
02/03/2010
FROG
In light of point number 3, in Why the Organic Church Is Not Exactly a Movement, how do you balance the great commissioning of Jesus (Matthew 28:18-20 and Mark 16:15) with the goals of the church in Acts? Does 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 4 supercede Jesus’ commissioning? In other words, should Paul and his doctrinal teaching supercede Jesus’ commandment?
I am in agreement that a severe lack oc genuine community exists in the average American church (as I have experienced them) and that the body has been stifled; however, are genuine expressions of orgainc church mutually exclusive of the commissionings of Jesus?
Thanks,
Daniel M.
frankaviola
02/03/2010
Daniel. First, see my book PAGAN CHRISTIANITY for what the so called “Great Commission” really is. That text has been taken out of context and made into something Jesus Christ never intended. Second, the question that often gets begged in this discussion is HOW DID THE APOSTLES MAKE DISCIPLES EXACTLY? See my answer here: https://frankviola.wordpress.com/2009/07/26/discipleship-mission-and-church-a-plea-to-learn-our-history/
Once we get clear on this, there is no tension at all between Jesus and Paul or any of the NT.
Vince
02/03/2010
Hmmm… sometimes, people really don’t understand what they are reading. I can still cite a baptist denomination who overemphasized what John Calvin said in his “Institute of Christian Religion”. In effect they have become hyper-Calvinists.
I think the same thing is true here. Some people have misunderstood what they are reading. Instead, they make their own “exegesis” from the “exegesis” of others. Funny but foolish….
I haven’t read your book yet coz it’s hard to find it here in the Philippines. But once i get accross of it, will surely buy it. I can tell you that my Church is living as organic, and promoting this form of Church.
pam hogeweide
02/05/2010
once when interviewing another author we had a sidetracked conversation about any construct of church being flawed because all constructs are human constructs. (construct, btw, is my new fave word…not Construct, but cahn-strukt…ok, vocab rabbit trail finished)
it is a thought that has held my attention for a little while. aren’t all constructs of church destined to become corrupt because church is people and people eff it up all the time?
this kind of circular argument gets me dizzy.
I have no idea how to do church let alone how to be church. I just live my life, ordinary woman that i am, and try to love those within my reach and view. sometimes i have modest success, much of the time i fail. and yet there lies within a kind of relentless loyalty to a kingdom that is visible and yet shadowy. it’s like believing a conspiracy. there must be a holy form of church in the earth somewhere? if i could only find it… oh yeah. i did find it. and she is staring right back at me.
I am Church.
frankaviola
02/06/2010
Pam, I personally don’t believe in pushing a certain “contruct” or “model” of church, hence why I never have. The church is organic and she comes out of a corporate life in Christ. Church life will always have problems as it’s made up of fallen people. Most of the NT letters were written to churches in crisis in fact.
However, to say that the practice of church life doesn’t matter or that any model/form of church is fine with God because people are fallen doesn’t fit the teachings of Jesus or the apostles. The church — as God conceives it — is God’s ultimate passion; she’s His eternal purpose. That statement will raise eyebrows for those who do not have a revelation of the Bride and God’s passion for her. But she remains God’s highest priority, and Christ died to win her hand. Not long ago I wrote an article about the whole postchurch idea that each individual person is the church. I can’t find that in the NT. The church is the body of Christ; we are but members of that body. I thank God that “me, myself and I” — the unholy trinity — aren’t the church :). I need my brothers and sisters, and the ekklesia is my native habitat. For that reason, I’ve physically relocated to be part of her and so have many others. Hope that helps.
Jordan
02/12/2010
I am interested to hear your thoughts on a recent review of Pagan Christianity.
Jordan
frankaviola
02/12/2010
Jordan, there’s nothing new in the critique. The points in it are simply a rehashing of the same points made by scores of others critiques over the last two years.
You can see the response to these arguments by George and I here: http://www.ptmin.org/answers.htm
Be sure to check out the two scholarly debates which were made public because the author of one of the critiques came to me and invited me on his blog to respond and posted my response on his blog so all readers could see both sides of the argument. May his tribe increase!
I find it quite interesting that after two years of the book’s release, people are still trying to refute it, but without success. After hundreds of attempts to knock it off the shelf, the points in the book still stand, as does the sequel “Reimagining Church.” “Pagan” is not a stand alone book; most critiques never bring this out interestingly enough.
Btw/ over the last two years, the authors of every critique on the book to date have never come to me directly to ask for my response. There’s only been on exception to that. I find that curious.
Nolan Rowdy Morgan
10/06/2010
I didn’t read everyones post above so this could have already been said but, I believe these straw man ideas are often the result of people’s comfort circles being threatened. In the western world of America, we like traditions, routine, and comfort all too much. When our traditions are questioned it’s usually met with misunderstanding and hostility. Like Myth 10, church leadership. When we begin to ask questions or make points on church leadership, it can be easily misunderstood as being against church leadership altogether. Asking questions isn’t the norm anymore.
marc goodman
10/07/2010
My spirit keeps tells me that religion in America is full of good ideas on “how to do” Christianity and many are good concepts. However they leave off altogether the best “idea” and that is Christ. I’ve seen my 18 year old son depart from our home and be greatly influenced by the culture and we followed all the “rules” and “concepts” that the church put forth. What we did not focus on was the two ton elephant in the middle of the room which is the indwelling Christ. He is the only thing that can heal and make a difference everything else is rubbish………
Armageddon Thru To You
11/13/2010
Is there a cliff notes version to this book? I also couldn’t locate a “What We Believe” or similar link on the author’s site. I see this book and some of the author’s sermons available for download and the attention it’s getting, and my natural knee-jerk reaction is to ask myself, “is this just another message to tickles one’s ears”.
I haven’t read the book, but would like to know what the basic premise is about.
frankaviola
11/15/2010
Armageddon: Read the book and listen to the messages and you will be able to answer your own question. There are no cliff notes for the books (I don’t know any contemporary Christian book today that has cliff notes). But there are sample chapters at http://www.ptmin.org/mediography
Bob Romanelli
01/27/2011
Thank you, Frank, for your list of must-read books. This is the sort of instruction we are not receiving in the institutional church that too often blocks the parishioner from coming into contact with truth about the nature of “pagan Christianity.” Reading The Jesus Manifesto is such a blessing, for it does away with this heretical merchandising of the blood of Christ in American-business “Christianity” and focuses upon the one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus. I am saddened as I see institutional churches grow because of charismatic teachers and professional musicians and the “entertainment” they provide, while at the same time they offer only an excuse for parishioners not to follow the plain teachings of our Lord and Savior, who had not where to lay His head. God bless you, Frank.