What follows are some quotes I’ve read recently regarding the current economic crisis and the traditional church. Forgive the lack of citation, but I did this on the fly and the purpose is for discussion. I hope you will share your thoughts on my two questions.
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“A new study from the Barna Group found that during the past three months, one out of every five households had cut its faith-based giving. As a result, churches could see donations decline by as much as $5 billion and revenue by as much as 6 percent during the fourth quarter of the year. “The enemy of charitable giving is insecurity,” said Paul G. Schervish, professor of sociology and director of the Center on Wealth and Philanthropy at Boston College. “Right now, we can’t even project the end of the recession, like we did other recessions.”
“The number of religious groups in trouble is growing. Focus on the Family, a faith-based organization in Colorado with a $5 million deficit, laid off more than two hundred workers in November, while Seventh Day Adventist Church leaders have instituted a wage freeze and a 20 percent reduction in travel. Elsewhere, falling donations recently forced the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh to hold a “special collection” for Catholic Charities in response to a 40 percent increase in calls to the agency’s emergency assistance program.”
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“During the last year, most churches have reported 5 percent to 10 percent reductions in giving. I’m also aware of some churches that are experiencing up to a 20 percent reduction from last year’s collections. Because we have not seen such a drop in general giving in recent decades, this loss of revenue has caught many churches by surprise. Churches that previously had little or no debt have borrowed for building projects in recent years, banking on the future growth to generate revenue to pay off the debt. However, the drop in giving has caused church lenders to see a rise in troubled debt situations.”"In response to this decreased giving, church lenders are tightening their lending requirements. Robert Yi, vice president of church and ministry lending for Evangelical Christian Credit Union, says, “We’re doing a modest amount of lending due to tight liquidity in the marketplace. Along with other financial institutions, we’re anticipating a recovery in the financial markets that would allow us to return to more typical lending volumes. Until then, we’re focusing our financing efforts primarily on meeting the critical needs of our existing member ministries.”
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“I also believe that what goes on in them [support groups] is far closer to what Christ meant his Church to be, and what it originally was, than much of what goes on in most churches I know. These groups have no
buildings or official leadership or money. They have no rummage sales, no altar guilds, no every-member canvases. They have no preachers, no choirs, no liturgy, no real estate. They have no creeds. They have no program. They make you wonder if the best thing that could happen to many a church might not be to have its building burned down and to lose all its money. Then all the people would have left is God and each other.”
~ Frederick Buechner, Quoted on pg. 277 of Reimagining Church.
buildings or official leadership or money. They have no rummage sales, no altar guilds, no every-member canvases. They have no preachers, no choirs, no liturgy, no real estate. They have no creeds. They have no program. They make you wonder if the best thing that could happen to many a church might not be to have its building burned down and to lose all its money. Then all the people would have left is God and each other.”
~ Frederick Buechner, Quoted on pg. 277 of Reimagining Church.
Two Questions:
1. Do you have any related statistics to add to the above?
2. What is your take on the present economic crisis in relation to the church and the kingdom of God?
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The church our family attends has had to let go of some personnel , and adjust the budget in other ways, to accomodate a running, monthly, deficit in giving versus spending. Every church I know of in our area has experienced similar need for adjustment.
Personally, I think it is only a matter of time, especially in this economic downturn, before churches will lose their tax exempt status. Not only would this create a rich inlfux of new money for the government coffers, it would also appeal to a growing number of people who feel that this would more properly support the sentiment of “separation of church and state.” Nonprofits have to abide by certain rules which churches, by definition, can’t really abide by in terms of equal hiring practices, and offering of certain services.
I agree with Buechner’s quote, but the actual process of losing church buildings, and losing jobs, losing programs that really do help lots of people…this will be very painful for many.
This is going to be a great time for all of us as the Church to step out in love for one another in need. Trust God in everything, He will provide. Pray that God will lead us to opportunities to help in any way we can. Let us get out there and bring glory to Him in all we do.
Christ first in everything we do,
Brian
1. No.
2. Philippians 4:12-13.
Wow shiny new blog! Pretty!
I can only add my personal stats. I have started giving more than ever. Twenty here to this person, twenty there to that person. A bag of groceries, buying some clothes for a friends kids, auto deductions from the checking account to ONE ministry that I watched for two years before I gave them a dime. Adding some international ministries for hunger. I have reduced my spending drastically and since I don’t tithe I can afford to do it. Strangely (or not *wink*) my family is better off than they’ve ever been. But I also entered this lean time from a time of storing up and the paying off of our last bit of debt (land and a car) coincided with the present crunch. That is God. I really feel for those that are suffering through this, I know that pain. But I also know that God can bring them through. We learned hard lessons in the last recession that stuck like glue and although we lost everything, God sustained us and brought us to a place of abundance. It wasn’t easy, though.
Here is what I think for what it is worth Frank V. We have way too much money wrapped up in infrastructure. I don’t want to be ugly but let me show you the hypocrisy that I have experienced. In some churches they will bring in Crown Financial to talk to believers about debt and so forth but then turn around and take about millions of dollars in debt to finance a new building, thus taking the entire church into debt. So they want you free from debt in order to give them (under the lie that you are giving it to God) to fulfill their vision of ministry.
In turn we see billions and billions of dollars wrapped up in church competing for scarce resources. Those resources are Christians. We know mathmatically the number of Christians in America (I use that term loosely) is shrinking but we can’t but to see more and more buildings going up. Makes us wonder.
Finally giving in the local church has seen 80% or so go to staff dollars, building upkeep, and reserves while the rest is used for actual ministry (and I am being generous). I think this is wake up call, that the current Capitalistic Business Model that plagues the local church must stop. It is funny that “biblical” stewardship is often preached but rarely ever practiced by the local church entities. I have much more to say but I will stop.
Yes, it is happening in my town, and to one of the larger churches. They have totally shut-down everything for one year, except for the weekly meetings. Their youth pastor told me that if they failed to act, they would pretty much be bankrupt in 6 months.
I think this present crisis is good for the church because it will FORCE us to FOCUS on God rather than programs and mindless, traditional, boring religion.
Frank,
This is near and dear to my heart. Father has been speaking to me about a Kingdom Economy. The saints have been brainwashed by these professional religious institutions in believing the entitlements mentality that has its origin in the government. Believers think that since they tithe they get a free lunch at the expense of other believers.
The Lord has been building the underground church in the USA for some 30 years. The house church gatherings is one demonstration of that underground church. Combined and separate is the stream of home school families that have separated from government education. And I believe that the next stream for the underground is a Kingdom Economy that does not rely on the world system.
What will the saints do when the Mark of the Beast comes and no one can buy and sell without taking the mark? I don’t know if this is the generation of such an event, but the collapse of the fiat money system globally is just as bad. We need to think outside the box of the world system.
With rising inflation buying in bulk those things that don’t perish hedges against the price increases to come. When inflation gets too high the government (who is causing the inflation) will set up price controls. The WWII era experienced much price controls, which always led to shortages. Bartering and buying and selling on the black market became a necessity. Those who were skilled in crafts of repair flourished because people can not buy new items. Exchanges of services became common, and also were untaxable.
It is time for the saints to encourage one another in being entrepreneurs and leaders. Those with hobbies should look into making their hobbies second stream incomes. The saints should pool resources and talents. I do not mean in a Christian communistic way that so many think is the Kingdom of God, but in drawing upon and in relying upon one another in services rendered, that should be paid. Yes, we should be generous with the household of faith, but the household of faith should pay for those services if they are able.
Our concern should not be the fate of institutions but the welfare of the saints. Welfare in care and encouragement, not freebies. For too long we have accepted the mentality that Christian charity means accepting a fish or giving a fish. That is not so. Christian charity means teaching people to fish for themselves. Jesus demonstrated Christian charity in multiplying the fishes, not by handing out minuscule portions to everyone. A multiplication that only occurred when the apostles took the fish to distribute to the crowds.
So I am urging all who gather in homes to find out and encourage everyone in their fellowship to think outside the box and become entrepreneurs in the ways that you are all gifted and able. We need to encourage the saints to be the employers, not the employees. Let us get Egyptian slavery out of our thinking, and be the leaders that the dying world will want to turn to for help and salvation.
I liked the last paragraph… “Then all the people would have left is God and each other”. I think that’s the way Jesus meant for it to be. I don’t think the economic crisis need affect the Kingdom of God, but it WILL affect institutions. Follow Jesus and He’ll direct us with our finances and supply what we need.
I hope this crisis will bring some of us back to reality. The Western part of the world has known 60 years of peace and prosperity, but all that did not account to a greater manifestation of the Lord on Earth. It looks like the contrary. It seems to me that it is harder to be a true follower of Jesus Christ in good times than in tribulations. In good times, we lose the sense of eternity and the need for a Shepherd. After all, we have all that our soul needs, or we are deceived to believe that. Food and entertainment fills up our body and mind, and the spirit is forgotten.
I am personally not very sure that the crisis will be of great spiritual benefit. People will rush to the churches and to their knees for deliverance. Will they remain on their knees after that? Will Jesus Christ be truly the Lord of their heart after that? Only He knows. I hope He will. I pray He will. Some will meet Him as Lord. But we are such an earthly people. How soon we return to our old ways.
Frank,
I am so glad that you asked this question. We are trying to give more but are focused on organizations that work with the homeless and the poor both at home and overseas. In order to do that we have cut our food budget both as individuals and as a community – we are doing rice and beans type meals for our community get togethers so that we have something to give away. Also as an organization (Mustard Seed Associates) we are gettting together with local churches and organizations to put together a resource packet to help them function in tlmes like this. You can check outour October 2008 seed sampler that focused on recession preparedness http://msainfo.org/seed-sampler/
Blessings
Chrisitne Sine
[...] Viola has an interesting post on the effects of the current economic crisis in which he asks two questions at the end of the [...]
Economic crisis is good thing if fewed in the context of the Church, but bad if considered in view of the church.
The church suffers materially, funds are reduced and consequent earthly matters are suffering.
However the Church is given the opurtunity to grow even faster in this environment. Growth in the form of togetherness, helping each other, identifying needs (which are becoming more apparent due to the crisis). The fullness of God within us are given a clearer path to flow towards our fellow believers. The Church are given the oppurtinity to invest in the most valuable commodity on earth viz. TIME
The further our bankbalance is moving into the red the lower our knees tend to bend in prayer to our loving Farther for help.
Fortunatley God is the same in both good and bad time, He is our Loving Farther with an unsatisfied passion for his Church.
Thank God for the oppurtunity for realising what really matters in life, it is not the race toward wealth and material richness but towards spending time with our loved ones and those in need, helping them where required. And ultimately spending time with THE LOVED ONE
The congregation that we associate with has an official church newspaper that has displayed budget shortfalls that amount to 3% one month and then 9% the next month. That is after extensive layoffs, reduction in programs and elimination of venue services. Things are almost pared to the bone. In every sermon series, it seems that there is at least one mention of giving to the ‘church’ to prove faithfulness to God.
It has been painful for those whose occupation is full-time service to the organization. But it is also difficult to see the confusion on the faces of the congregation. Many of them have volunteered extensively in programs to which they have given their hearts, minds and finances. It feels as if the organization is in freefall.
I believe that we are being asked to choose ‘life’ but we don’t understand that ‘life’ is not as we have been told but it is something entirely different.
Nothing on 1.
On 2. it seems to me logical that church organizations that are built on the model of the commercial corporation will suffer in the downturn along with most other corporations.
On the other hand, the grass roots organic form of church will be in a position to directly care for those in its surroundings who are in need.
1) Here’s my related statistics; this is the financial summary of last year from the church I used to go to….. (as found on their website)
2008 Received:$4,261,339
Over/(Under) Budget: (-$145,733)
% Over/(Under) Budget: (-3%)
Preparing for Growth: $376,090 (Given to Date)
Benevolent 2008: $149,342
I suppose being only 3% under budget isn’t that dire. But it’s when you examine the “Benevolent” giving, (that’s money that’s given to those in need…), as compared to the overall budget, that it’s really alarming… I’m horrible at math, so maybe someone should check my work, but I figure that to be 3.5% of the church’s total giving. The amount of cash being saved for a new buildings (”Preparing for Growth”) is more than double what is given to those in need. According to my math, 87.6% of all the money goes towards paying staff, mainaining buildings, and running programs….
2) Hopefully the economic crisis will be used by God to bring more people to a place where they can see just how out of whack our priorities are…… Hopefully…
1. Sorry, not a stats guy.
2. I’m not sure what everyone really expected seeing as how most contemporary church financial models are built on the worldly/secular economic system. Kinda seems to me that the “church” has been of the world financially instead of just in it and following God’s way of existing. I know our church is working off a $1 million debt on a new children’s/pre-school building and I know it is used to minister to children throughout the week, but I can’t help but think what could be done throughout the community with $1 million over the next 8-10 years.
I only wish I now had all the cash I gave to the church … over 100k is a small estimate … what would I do with it? I would split it evenly among my 3 grown children to pay towards their college debt … much better use of it in my opinion …
This is good stuff. For me, I first started thinking really seriously along these lines when I read this article at Jesus Manifesto. It shook me. My wife and I had been discussing the idea of moving into community, among other things. But regardless, here are the ideas that it listed:
For the Church:
1. It’s time to get utterly serious about intentional Christian community. We are going to need each other more than ever in the next few years. Get with brothers and sisters of faith now and pray for wisdom. There are many models for Christian community; new monasticism is just one. Pray, pick one and act.
2. Get ready to take care of the homeless. You or your neighbors may be counted among them.
3. Don’t forget the poor in other countries, this recession is global. Whatever economic disaster hits here will be much, much worse overseas.
4. The Church must remain a testimony of hope among the hopeless. Throw a ceili dance, invite neighbors, share your joy in Christ.
For individuals:
1. Learn practical skills. People who can fix things, build stuff, facilitate healing, teach, grow food, hunt and fish will be in demand. Liberal arts majors take note!
2. Entertain yourselves without technology. Learn a musical instrument. Write poetry. Learn to draw. Start a weekly Scrabble game. Go for a walk.
3. Get out of debt. Get out of debt. Get out of debt.
4. Pray.
Frank..Oddly enough I was just having a conversation along these lines just before I read your questions. Our church is a very small, non-denominational church but is structured pretty much along the usual lines. We are thinking a lot about these matters, especially we have finished the last 2 years with sizable deficits. We are growing to understand in “gut level” ways that the church is about people and not buildings, etc.
I am blessed to not be in a situation with a moderate to large church with a huge mortgage. Just looking at things economically (we are all open to good gifts and surprises of God), I believe we have to take 2 things into account: (1) the present economic difficulties and (2) the long term difficulties.
If history is any indication, the present difficulties will right themselves sooner or later. However, our nation is in an unbelievable mess in the long term with ungodly deficits, a growing national debt that is held by nations who could be friends today and not tomorrow, a growing healthcare/entitlement budget, etc. etc. (Anyone interested in seeing into this watch the documentary IOUSA. ) Unless drastic steps are taken my grandchild’s generation will have a much lower standard of living to pay off this ungodly and immoral debt we are leaving them. Then the question becomes, “who is going to pay for these barns that are being built in the name of God?” e.g. the mega-church who built a barn 5 years ago and is holding a 30 year mortgage. It is the same idiotic practice that has gotten the nation in trouble.
I believe that we will see a growth in house churches and, even organic churches, due to the financial pressures that will be exerted on future generations. I know those are not the God-ordained reasons, etc. but many times people have responded to sociological/economic pressures and found the theological rationale for their responses. (Please understand I think the organic church is precisely New Testament!)
For better or worse, I have been in paid, professional ministry( I know, I know..) for 35 years. My advice to the future generations of those who can resist that course: “take a course in making tents.” But, my best advice to everyone….read the New Testament and do that. Most of the anxiety that keeps many of us in the traditional structure up at night is over nothing but crap we have created for ourselves to worry about.
God is giving us a wonderful opportunity to rethink, regroup, and REPENT… along with wonderful opportunities to serve those who are really feeling the pain.
By the way…I had a former student from Zimbabwe who is a church planter. I asked him about his plants and what those churches “looked like”. He looked at me with a puzzled expression and said, “Well..they look like a people gathered in a field.”
THAT to me…is the church. A people gathered in a field and one that is yet white unto harvest.
I have no additional statistics or quotes, only a few comments:
1. I believe true giving is sourced in an individual/families walk with Jesus. We give because He gives. If giving is going down because of the economy, perhaps the reasons for giving were not born out of this relationship as much as obligation and fear? In other words, the fear of the economic situations has trumped the fear that causes some to give. Of course, this cannot be said of everyone!
2. I am personally happy to hear that the institutional church is experiencing these circumstances. It would be great to see many of these traditions associated with the name of Christ to crumble. There are so many traditions that have a stranglehold on the faith and must be torn down! When paid clergy cannot be sustained, perhaps then people will walk in the truths of 1 Cor. 14:26? When the organization can no longer keep itself alive because of funds, then perhaps the organism will be given more freedom to operate. Despite possessing 90%+ of the resources of the world, this country (”christians” included) are among the least effective and involved in proclaiming Jesus among the nations, so the money’s currently not helping us be very effective anyway! Praise God’s that promises and intentions for The Church are not based on the economy! We have nothing to fear and everything good to hope for!
I recently featured Taleb speaking out in frustration against the economic and banking establishment, also joined by his mentor: Benoit Mandelbrot. They blame the present belief in naive risk models for failing to anticipate the coming crisis.
Their statements about rapid crashes have striking correspondence with Jared Diamond’s observations about societal collapse.
Frank,
The world is in Scarcity mode. We as Marketplace Champions need to be in abundance mode. Money is not disappearing in front of our eyes, this is a scarcity mindset. Money is only transferring to someone else. This is the biggest opportunity ever created by God to unify the body of Christ. ( Proverbs 28: 28). We are to called live under the umbrella of Abraham’s blessing. No lack, No debt, Unlimited resources, Always increasing. Through Gods Glory under the direction of the Holy Spirit. We have written a prospectus to unify the body of Christ. We need to unify the body in every city around the world. 3% of the US has a biblical worldview, and God is not happy about it. Its time to band together.
Just like a sports team there are all-star players, support players and fans. We cannot spit in the face of our fans they want to see us succeed, they are on our team. We need to unify our little 3% and increase our market share
Frank,
I am hoping in the coming days that the Holy Spirit puts us together, so I may share with you in detail what needs to happen, with or without us, God is unifying His army.
Nice quote Jim – “[the church] looks like a people gathered in a field.”
Ours looks like a people gathered in a house.
We had a 24% decrease in donations in 2008, but was in a position to absorb it. We are planting social justice churches and our focus is on people and not buildings. Because of our focus, we do not buy or build buildings for worship services. We choose to rent instead so that we can focus on point of need ministry. We also are not focused on programs and events designed to bring people into our services. Instead we encourage and empower our people to minister at the point of need throughout the week in our communities.
You can find out more about what we are doing at http://www.LovingGodFellowship.org .
Know that you are loved,
gaj
Well, I’m not happy that the IC is feeling this because I’m just a person that hates to see anyone suffer. I’m a complete enabler. *g* Thankfully God isn’t and those decisions aren’t left up to me.
Maybe this isn’t so much an loss of money as it is one of power. The power that the money gave the Building, is flowing back down and out to the people, where it belongs in the first place.
That particular view enables you to see that this could be the beginning of expotential growth of The Church. And isn’t that a good thing? So instead of seeing gloom and doom, maybe the captives are being set free? Maybe we should be rejoicing?
I think that as the times get tougher, it will become more and more evident what is of God and what is not in every assembly…institutional or otherwise.
May His grace and mercy abound to us all.
Frank-
The Kingdom of God is in great financial shape. Although I recognize that Christians are present within the Institutional hurch, I do not recognize those buildings and their paid staff and one man pulpit ministries to be the church.
Once you turn your back on the unbiblical system of maintaining buildings, maintaining a building mortgage payment and staff salaries, there is plenty of money to be used to support legitimate biblical ministries and to help the poor and needy.
My wife and I give to Living Water, Wycliffe, help to maintain a widow and spontaneously give to teh poor.
We will never again give to a building or staff salaries.
The church is rich as she lives in dependanceon upon the Lord Jesus Christ for her daily bread.
But when an organization is working towards building its own personality cult and and a group of men are building their own personal kingdom, that organization will fall prey to economic conditions that effect all corporations.
I say close the doors and let the paid staff go and get a real job.
The Kingdom of God will not be harmed in the least.
A perspective from England: The economic crisis may not be so profound here (yet) but I find myself agreeing with the views expressed here. I also have a different church perspective to offer. We are a so called “emerging” church, we have no building for ourselves (and never will have), we have no debt (as a church), we do not practice tithing (we do not believe Jesus promoed this practice). We believe in and are discovering what authentic christian community should and could be about (although we have a very long way to go).
May I suggest that a contributory factor to the established church’s funding crisis (not mentioned above) is the emphasis on giving “to the church” (in the guise of giving to God!) instead of the Jesus way, which is to consider everything we have as belonging to God. the outworking of this has to be both sharing everything we can share with others and making sure that everyone within the community (both christian and not yet) are all provided for.
The other comment I have regards our attitude to debt. I too am horrified by the obscene buikding programmes that certain larger churches persist with. Even in this country these can have multi-million pound budgets and be funded by the accumulation of debt. This both places the church at the whim of the so obviously flawed capitalist system and acts as the antithesis of “leading by example”. One of our key practices is to make freeing people from the slavery of debt a priority and this comes before contributing to the needs of the community. Of course this goes hand in hand with discipleship…but that’s a whole new topic!
At this time the church needs to live within it’s means and must learn it’s lesson and work to free itself from slavery to the world. We should offer freedom from this oppression so that people can be free to choose slavery to Christ.
A local institutional church my parents are ‘elders’ at was grateful to end the year in the black. They haven’t cut staff and probably are slightly better than average in mission giving and ‘benevolence.’ They have a free community meal every Wed. night. (Not usually a potluck, but rather paid for out of the budget.)
However, I had the misfortune to hear the pastor say recently that by remodelling and painting the Activity Center they were ‘furhering the Kingdom of God’ making space for ‘more people to be able to come and experience Him!” (Query — they keep God in the Activity Center? I was sure He hung out in the ‘Sanctuary!’)
The problem with an economic crisis is that giving is discretionary, and so has to suffer even if folks are determined to continue somehow. For the institution, if it’s income is less, the things cut will have to be the real giving on their part, because the rest is ‘bills.’ They are not going to sell the building to keep up the benevolence minisitry, for example. So I don’t see how less income will benefit them by teaching them any lessons or priorities or anything, unless they already have a very radical streak. It will just inhibit the few worthwhile things they do.
Even if lots of them go bankrupt, it won’t change their mindset or the mindset of most of the people. THey’ll just regroup and start over in the same vein, or join an institutioan across town that’s surviving.
If we can continue to challenge the mindset, like Frank and others are, we may see some real change.
I appreciate all that was said against debt. We wouldn’t have this economic problem if the federal government practiced any kind of restraint in regards to debt.
I really relate to the one poster here who said they are actually doing really well financially in this climate. I am too! And I don’t tithe, either. According to the IC, I thought God was supposed to rain down disaster on my finances or something…apparently, He has other ideas
Of course, I don’t know how long this will last. I can say that the Lord seems to be upping my giving as well (like that same poster said) – as the need around me increases, and my resources are also strangely and steadily increasing, I’m being challenged to give (not tithe) more and more frequently. I found myself wondering today if God was going to give me some sort of windfall because of giving lately, and I suddenly had a realization that I don’t give in order to get blessed…I give because of what I’ve already been blessed with. How backwards is this from the carrot on a stick approach that I’ve become so accustomed to hearing? Do I really need more? Sure, I’d love to have more..but… what comes to mind is 2 Corinthians which talks about how those with much share with those who have little, in order that there might be equality. This should be our heart… mutuality, not “I’m giving to you so that God will let me win the lotto.” Ok, well, I’d like to win the lotto. But you get the idea
Consider this a warped version of answering your statistics question. I really don’t have a clear answer to #1 or #2
I can say – I really hope that people don’t move into community with one another and start becoming less institutional just because it works for them financially. I want to be in community with people who receive me and I them because of Christ in us – not because we’re all stuck in a bind and need to come up with some sort of creepy neighborly arrangement to keep each other going. That doesn’t sound to me like real fellowship and shared hearts in Christ – that just sounds to me like another crazy institutional system about to bloom and counterfeit a true move of God in men’s hearts.
1. No statistics that are non anecdotal.
2. Christians have never let up on their giving in all the ages, and never will in the apocalypse to come. It is not in our DNA to stop giving, only to shift the form it takes. The measurement that Mr. Barna made is only indicative of giving that is institutional. Our incomes may be at the widow’s mite level, but it seems to me that the current economic crisis does not threaten the kingdom of God, it frightens those who put God in their box. Deficits may be God’s way of saying” You misunderstood what I wanted you to do with the gifts from the faithful”. I dunno, I’m not God, but it seems that big church needs to decrease, and Christ needs to increase through the simplicity of a Lean-Mean _Christian Machine.
Question 1: That is the “word on the street” as well.
Question 2:
It means the bank account of the Kingdom of God will grow quite steeply in 2009. Because a faith-based giving means “what you sow is what you reap”, so if there is less sowing, there is less reaping, which means God’s bank account will have to pay out less in 2009 than in 2008, which means there will be no recession in the Kingdom!!.
Well, I see it this way if the church building is gone what is left for the people to give their money to? Think of all the money that would be freed up for God’s people to pay off debts, minister to the lost, and help meet the needs of the brethren.
Acts 4:32 (NIV) –
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had.
What is your take on the present economic crisis in relation to the church and the kingdom of God?
It can be a curse or a blessing depending on what happens next. The monster that has been created (institutional church with all its financial demands) must be fed and usually it is not the building costs or the staff salaries that will get cut, it is the ministries that are reaching the poor and downtrodden that will suffer. Or the people will be “guilted” to dig deeper and give more so that the salaries and financial monster can stay fell fed.
I work for a non profit ministry and each of us who work there must raise our own support. No one gets a pay or salary. We are responsible to raise our own support. I have been a missionary to the drug addicts for over 25 years now and God has always met our financial needs. My wife is a school teacher and with the two incomes we have survived. There was a time (1996) when my wife’s teaching contract was not renewed and 2/3rds of our income was her teaching salary. I almost decided to quit ministry and go back into construction to make up the difference. God very plainly told me to stay where I am and trust Him to take care of us. So for the next year my wife homeschooled our two children and we lived solely on my income. What is ironic is the two years before my wife lost her job money was so tight even with her income that I would balance our checkbook almost weekly. The amazing thing is that the entire year she homeschooled I never had to balance my checkbook once because there remained enough of a buffer in there even after paying the bills. My support base only went up about 10 to 15 percent over the previous year but we never ran out of money.
I am now in a similar position as 1996. I have left my church of 12 years. I was on staff there and was receiving over $1,500 a month for my part time position as the church recovery pastor. So I am now back in full time missionary status and needing to trust God once again for our income. My wife is working as a school teacher which helps and we have zero debt which helps as well. Even with the cut in my income God has been proving true to His word. He is providing for our needs. I don’t know how he does it but He is able to stretch the American dollar to three times its size when necessary. I have lived that several times in the past 25 plus years.
Lew
I feel that if our religious goals and ambitions need’s the assistance of the worlds financial markets to advance then we are most likely not advancing HIS kingdom and he is not the one behind it. Jesus said that the Gates of Hell will not prevail against his church, if that is true then how are the gates of wall street able to do it.
(1)These are some news reports from Northern Ireland.
THE Presbyterian Mutual Society, with assets of some £300 million, was yesterday unable to meet massive demand for withdrawals and was stopping repayments to members.
The credit crunch finally reached the church today when it announced that a run of recent withdrawals meant it no longer had the money to meet demand.
Presbyterian Mutual Society members are unlikely to get all their money back, its administrator has said.
Thousands of investors face losing millions of pounds in savings following the collapse of the Society.
The administrator of the society has told members it was not yet possible to say how much money they would get back.
The administrator said that if the members agree to the orderly run down of the business they would receive part of their investment back over a period of time, but he has made it clear that getting all their money returned is not an option.
This is grim stuff for individuals who have placed their life savings in the Society.
(2)Western Society including the vast majority of Christians and including myself have all walked the road of a continuous grow model. New car every so many years, better High Def TV, computer upgrade, latest dishwasher, freezer and on and on and on………the fabric of society is like thin ice and it seems its all about to crack up.
Community is all but gone ‘individualism’ is king. The individuals who will do best out of the times ahead will be those who are wrapped up in ‘Community’, they will look after oneanother. Many churches are not community based any more and brothers and sisters will fall. The two thirds world will look on at us and say welcome to the real world.
Lord rescue us from ourselves.
PS Not sure about the red and black web page, mucky yellow and black if I’m colour blind.
PPS Reading through the Chronological Study Bible. Great!!!
Lot’s of good observations made on this topic…big response. Gives a person plenty to ruminate upon.
T
I know with my own family, we maybe haven’t given as much to the church as we have in the past, but when you count helping people out along the way, we are giving more than ever.
I think this economy will expose needs in our own communities that we never could have imagined were there.
hi frank, great book; reimagining church; also loved the untold story.
let me know if you come over to uk. i would like to hear you.
i have a question; in reimagining church you talk about ‘one anothering’ and mention it is said nearly sixty times in NT.. have you got a list somewhere on your blog?
secondly i had a thought that ‘one anothering’ and mentoring, coaching , spiritual friendship are linked closely to one another. the artinsal lifestlye really helps with type of life. i’m exploring it at the moment but just wanted to flag it up.
1. No, I don’t have any statistics to add.
2. My take on the current econo crisis as it relates to church/society, carnal/spiritual matters. There are parallels between what happens above and below: spiritually and earthly. We know that God will bring or allow judgment upon the church first, and then the world. I believe it has been taking place in the church for a couple of decades and that the church system of today will fail, even as our world economy continues to collapse. The time frame is dictated momentarily by men’s choices, but over all by God. It will go the way God has purposed and he will use any and every thing to drive home a number of points to the believing and non-believing peoples of the world.
Side-note: on my new job the HR tried to get me to open up a 401K. I refused for a number of reasons. Basically, we should invest in God’s Kingdom/people first; if any is left over, help those outside the Kingdom of God. Secondly, I believe that the people who work in the business should be the investors, not strangers. That way, you have accountability. Same spiritually. That’s one reason why a house-church is so great: you have accountability in all matters, which you do not have in church buildings.
The ways of the world are geared towards spending, borrowing, lending, buying, investing, growing economies, getting rich. People in this country have been on a spending spree almost since WWII. As a baby boomer, have witnessed the change from purchasing only what one needs to survive and use excess to help others (very brief period) to uninhibited spending to fulfill wants. This has increased in ratio to the deterioration of family. So – we first neglected God, and then family: then used money and resources to fill up the emptiness in our hearts that God and family once filled. Because of the over-extension of credit in every nook and cranny of our society, we are in debt to each other and other countries. It is a pyramid scheme that will have to collapse (tho they keep printing money to throw at the problem to keep this from happening) because expansion of the economy over the past few decades has depended upon new workers with new ideas and all people continuing to spend money they did not have in order to finance new businesses, new jobs etc. You get the idea. None of this is Biblical. Check out the New Testament to see how people lived in families, communities, villages etc. Everyone will be judged for this ungodly excess.
In the past, different churches have had their skeletons trotted out for all to see, cutting their financial base for a time: some churches died out, others survived and became even wealthier. It takes extremely hard times for most people to see and hear the truth, whether inside or outside the church system. People under financial duress will withhold a certain amount or all donations and/or leave in droves and begin meeting in homes. A good House-Cleaning by the Master Cleaner is in order: Those who are truly seeking the heart of God will find it wherever they meet and will have victory over economic hard times, while accepting any judgment geared towards their growth. Those who are into attending church for any other reason will find themselves in fiery judgment and will have a choice to make. It is almost inevitable that all people will have to share in the misery confronting us to some extent. I think it will be up to the true Christ followers to lead the way to righteous living, helping those in need, regardless of affiliation or non. It will be a time for God’s people to shine, showing others the true path: to show the peace, joy, strength and courage that in such times, can only come from the one true God.
Whether the economy collapses now or later, judgment is going on and will help mature those seeking the Kingdom of God. These God will use to reach the rest of humanity. It is a proven fact that evangelists/missionaries find more doors open in times of duress for the gospel of Christ. Many men will find their hearts failing them, but many others will find victory and purpose in Christ and will be used to spread the good news and glorify God.
I was looking for stats of IC downturn on Google. Came across several articles in seminaries cutting expenses, laying off people. No more iconic symbol of problem than the capital outlay to “Christian education” and “Pastoral training” We’ve been told for hundreds of years to train clergy and laity to sit quiet. Maybe Holy Spirit has another idea and using economy to bring change????
Hi, Frank.
I’m a former church secretary, having been let go at the turn of the year. My church – of the declining Presbyterian suburban variety – was taking in $300,000 and spending $400,000. It wasn’t really about the recession, just poor management.
I was really proud of them for cutting my job. I’d said they should for at least a year, and everyone said cutting staff would be like “cutting the legs out” from our church’s ministry.
The organization and structure hold us back. I believe we as Christians will be at our best when the world is at its worst.
As far as the institutional church system goes, I think the idea of “he who lives under the law lives under a curse” could apply here.
But for those of us who are in Christ and delight in the riches of his grace…. I’m thinking that we can look to the birds and the lillies.
I’ve been thinking, when Christ told us that we must come to him as little children, he was revealing a little something about himself. He wants to be depended on!! I think about how much my children depend on me, and in a lot of ways, it meets a need that I didn’t even know I had. Although, at times (in the flesh) I can get annoyed at their constant neediness because I’m too busy doing something else. But the great news is… God doesn’t get annoyed!! In fact, I think he greives the fact that we get so independent in our thinking and often come him as a last resort.
During times of uncertainty, I think it’s easy to get caught up in the adrenaline rush of preparing for impending disaster or doom. But I think, if left there, it’s simply another distraction leading us away from the glorious life that is ours in Christ.
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